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California | Tagged Posts

2016
8
December
How to Plan a Memorable Disneyland Trip for 4 People on a Budget?

Question:

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Maricel

Hi fellow parents, my husband and I are planning to go to Disneyland CA next year with our kids 11 & 8... our first time and might be the last... saving $$$ now a days for a trip is just impossible.... so I'm just wondering if there's anybody out there who recently went for 4 people and took around 2 weeks? My husband prefer to long drive from Vancouver BC to Disneyland CA. I would truly appreciate it if you could give me some tips and some do's & don't... anything. I would like to make this trip memorable.... not stressful. Thanks in advance.

Humans say...

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Jeff

I would like to follow this discussion as we are in the same boat.

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Anni

Dont eat inside, super expensive. Drive down is about 3 full tanks of gas. Consider airbnb to reduce accommodation cost.

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Maricel

Thank you Anni

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Stacey

Anaheim has just banned airbnb, so this is not an option close to Disneyland.

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Maricel

What's airbnb?

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Tayigui

That will be inconvenient, we just stayed last month, super handy
It is home hotel.

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Noela

We used to drive down down every year in the summers and there was four of us. We'd do the drive in two days and stop on Boise- which is roughly halfway. We would stay at the days inn at Buena Park, which is 10-20 mins away- completely depends on traffic and they do weekly rates and breakfast. We would be there for park open and stay and leave for the main heat of the day 1-3 and go back to the hotel and do lunch, have a nap or a dip in the pool and then park until close. You can do the Southern California pass or just Disney, but it is nice to break up the days. We always found less people on Tuesday's, Wednesday and Thursday's and if you buy more than a 3 day pass you get the magic morning, which is totally worth it and get your fastpasses right away. Peter Pan is always the longest line, so do it first. Also, there's less people for second shows- so do the second word of colour. Take a water bottles, you can fill them whoever they sell fountain drinks and it's free and super cold unlike fountains all over the park. Hope this helps and have an amazing time! Take lots of photos!! They are the greatest memories later in life

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Maricel

Wow thank you Noela blayney Lopez. That's very helpful.

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Noela

I just looked for you, and there's flights for $139 per person out of Seattle.. if you stay the night there are hotels that give you a week free parking and after that it's $5-7. When I fly out of Seattle we stay at http://www.bestvalueairportinn.com/specials-and-packages.cfm

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Noela

Also, use priceline for rent a cars, I went last summer and paid $7/day with Budget on the 'name your own price' section and if you have roadstar, then you don't need their insurance because you are covered and you can add it at ICBC if you don't have it it's $15.

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Susan

The Candy Cane Inn is a great place to stay - you can come home in the aft for a nap. Pool/Kitchens

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Lynn

Eat at Mimi's Cafe! Large portions. Don't eat inside park unless planned. Bring your own water and snacks. Check out La Brea Tar Pits in LA!

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Maricel

Thank you Susan &Lynn

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Sherry

Our family has driven down a three times. I have soo many tips I'll see if I can put them all in. First with driving you can bring a flat of water/juice boxes - pick up dry snacks when they are on sale to bring with you. Our favorites were box of cereal, microwave popcorn, granola bars, cereal bars, any sort family favorite snacks. Food at and near the parks is a large expense. You can also stop at a Walmart on route to grab a few small items like milk, sandwich fixing etc. If you have a mini van bringing a small cooler helps.
We also drove down in 2 days, twice just straight down on the I5 once we did the California coast (which was beautiful but adds time to the travel) first night we try to get to Redding CA, our second night we also go to San Diego. We stay in San Diego for 2 nights, the day we arrive we go to San Diego old town (lots to see and kids can stretch their legs and then we do SeaWorld or zoo the next day. Then we drive to Disneyland?.

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Sherry

We normally stay at the Tropicana or Camelot hotel across the street from the entrance (walking back in the afternoon for nap/swim) but have also stayed at portofino which has bunk beds. Whatever day you arrive go walk downtown Disney it is free! it is a path between the 2 parks full of shops lights and excitement, the kids never want to wait till tomorrow to see disney so this will tide them over till the next morning

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Sherry

Bring a backpack with water & snacks into the park. Throw 2 half bottles of water in hotel room fidge/freezer to freeze (i do this every night) these will keep water bottles cooler in your backpack

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Maricel

Thank you Sherry

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Sherry

Your very welcome

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Sue

There is a book put out each year on Disneyland that has tips on food,hotels & when the best time to ride the rides..it gives you schedules. I can't remember the name of the book but I get it at the local library every time we go. It's so good ..so ask your local librarian she will now the book.. Have fun

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David

Unofficial Guide to Disney. Gives you ride routes to avoid the worst of the lines. 1, 2 or 3 day visits to either or both parks, plus ratings of each ride. Plus info on other parks. So worth it!

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David

Also sign up for mousesavers.com. Great site plus weekly savings and insider tips to all things Disney. Hojo anaheim is a great hotel, 10 min walk to gate, water park and pool, plus Mimi's restaurant. Free parking.

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Sherry

If you have any other questions I'll try n help ya out. Did I mention I am a Disneyland freak and sooooo love it

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Maricel

Sherry, I'm thinking safari in San Diego or universal studio.... I just can't pick just 1. Which 1 do you think kids will like more... 11 yr old boy & 8 yr old girl

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Maricel

We're gonna do the 3 days Disney passes for sure.

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Tj

Save your Airmiles up and use them to get your Disneyland passes. Even if you only get one 5 day pass, that saves you over $200.

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Chantal

Also go to the dollar store to buy Minnie/ Mickey ears and toys because inside the park is really pricey and you'll be tempted to buy them when your kids see all the other kids with Mickey things! I would suggest renting off airbnb or getting a flight / hotel deal with expedia or red tag. I went last time for $400 for 3 nights and direct flight from Vancouver and stayed right by Disneyland ! Disneyland/ California adventure is so amazing! Definitely Skip universal studios

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Adeline

Yeah but the ones inside the park are sooooo much cuter than the ones at the dollar store ?

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Adeline

universal studios was fun, what is wrong with you!

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Adeline

Oh wait I went to the Florida one, maybe it's different t

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Maricel

What's airbnb?

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Robert

Independent housing rental by owners. See www.airbnb.com .
AIRBNB.COM
Vacation Rentals, Homes, Apartments & Rooms for Rent - airbnb

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Cecilia

Agree with Chantal, skip going to Universal Studios in California. The only reason why my friends and I went was because entrance fees to Universal were included in our 3 day pass to Disneyland /California Adventures.
Cheapest place to buy your Disneyland passes in Vancouver is through Costco online.

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Sherry

All Our family enjoyed universal but you do not need 2 days there just get the 1 day pass. if this is your only trip to California i wouldn't skip it. It's our second favorite park. i would suggest doing the tram ride early/first then spend the rest of the catching the shows and rides

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Maricel

Noted! Thank you all

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Maricel

Now, when is the best time to go? Late August early September I heard.

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Kelsey

September is a good month to go weather wise. October is really fun too as they have all the decorations up for Halloween all in Disney style.. Amazing. I've been to Disneyland/World literally 20 times so let me know if you have any more questions!

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Monica

I agree - Sept still has great weather, and significantly shorter line ups for rides! This will make a huge difference in how many rides you can fit in. Also, the nightly fireworks are awesome! Maybe a bit late for the kids, but as a one off? Totally worth it

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Stacey

I just stayed at Extended Stay America, I got a cheap rate on hotwire, plus it has a kitchen so I was able to save money on meals.

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Stacey

Try mousesavers.com

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Jeffrey

Driving is stressful in s Cali... no washrooms and aggressive drivers...maybe a cheap flight on allegiant out of Bellingham...there are affordable car parks with airport shuttles.

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Teresa

Have you considered renting a place through vrbo? Super affordable and we stayed five mins walk from the free trolley. Everyone had their own bedroom and my son was so excited for his Disney themed room. Full kitchen too so we made a few meals ourselves to save money.

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Stacey

Anaheim city council just voted to ban all short-term rentals, the ban goes into effect in August.

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Maricel

That sucks!

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Teresa

They aren't banned. The renter needs a license. There are tons that are legal and available. We are going this fall and have rebooked already with a renter we've stayed with on previous trips.

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Maricel

Which one you prefer to rent? How long is it to walk to Disneyland?

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Teresa

I stay at Hermosa Village (just search for rentals in vrbo with this name). Literally a five min walk to the free trams to Disney. My five year old had no problem with the walk. Let us come home in the heat of the day and soak in the pool or hang out in the air conditioned townhouse.

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Cheryl

By California pass at Costco.ca
Fly down, Bellingham much less then driving
No mater were you stay you will take the shuttle, much cheaper then parking the car and good for the day to alot of other places
We rented a car down there, they picked us up and it was much cheaper also.
We stayed at a place wirh free parking and breakfast, we're there for 11 days so gave us a great room by the hot tub and pool
Hope this helps
We flew down last time from this site for $64.91 Canadian taxes in,
Use lift or uber less then half of a taxi

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Brian

I'll say 1 thing , driving into LA on the I5 is pretty busy / crazy , 7 lanes wide last time i drove in . . . maybe a secondary road in ? I think flying in would be better personally . Probably cheaper in the long run too .

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Brian

Brian Reiber I was on a Gold Wing Interstate Motorcycle with a Semi Truck right behind me and the car in front it looked like the lawn chairs tied on the roof were tied on with string flopping loose . . . Life or Death was what i saw before my eye's . . . at 70 MPH . Ya , a way's past Adventure i'd say , haha .

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Car

Following ?

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Aileen

If ever you changed your mind about driving, check out westjet as you can bundle things up (hotel, park tickets, ground transport from airport to hotel) and pay in Cad.

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Nary

If you take I-5 (starting from Seattle) to LA is an easy drive but not much to see. If you take highway 101 then highway 1, coastal drive, beautiful but take longer. If you want scenic drive, take highway 1 and go home via I-5. I agree, LA traffic is always busy, just more lanes on freeway compare to Canada freeways.

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Nary

You don't have to stay close by Disneyland if hotels are expensive. I went there once time, I stayed in Chino Hills, CA. Disneyland charges daily parking fee (I don't remember how much).

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Er

Did this 3 yrs ago. Due to limited time, we flew from seattle, paid approx $300 return on xmas-new year eve. Driving will take 2x2 days and you will be exhausted by the time you are in LA. Remember, you will walk a lot in disneyland. Rented a car. Stayed in an affordable hotel approx 20 min drive from disney (there was no airbnb 3 yrs ago). The closer the hotel to disneyland, the more expensive it will. Do the math. My math says car rent is cheaper than hotel near disney. You will need transport anyway to go to sea world and universal studio. Bought the citypass from costco online to save some $$. Check allegiant air and this wonderful yvr deals site to get the best airfare. Fly from vancouver might be cheaper now due to our low loonie. Just my two cents

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Lola

do fly, don't drive. You can get flights for $250 RT from Vancouver. You can get deals for hotel...sign up for their rewards. We stayed at the HOjo Anaheim. Great place with a pool, no resort fees. Check out DIS Boards, hydroguy is a great person to look up, he has great "first timer" reviews/how to's. Get a rental car...we got Alamo, you can do 2 discount codes on their website so we can our rental car (brand new only 50miles on dash) for $20 a day. Go to Target, pick up a flat of water...$5. Grab cereal, small milk etc for breakfasts, snacks etc. We brough arrowroot cookies/fruit leathers etc...stuff you can put into backpack that won't crush on fun rides. Bring riplock bags to put cell phones etc in on wet rides. Sign up for Denny's with area code for disneyland day before you leave, they send you 20% off coupon, print a gazillion...with the four of you , it helps save money. If you can, stay within walking distance...no more than 7 minutes walk. Trust me on this, that is probably the most important. Saves on daily parking, you can leave DLR/DCA and go for a nap/eat outside of parks. Do at least one character meal, it costs but trust me, it is worth one splurge. We did 2 weeks for 5 people, flying for and all in, saved money! We have done this 5 times. If you need more (because there is A LOT more) message me!) also, the first night you are there, make dinner reservations in downtown disney...walk over get your tickets for the next morning and go have dinner. then enjoy your first night as you walk by the gates ooohing and aaahhing lol.

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Maricel

Wow thanks Lola.

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Maricel

Which restaurant is good but affordable I can make the reservation for?

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Lola

we usually do the rainforest cafe...it isn't affordable but it gives you the walk down "downtown disney" and it has great atmosphere...elephants, sudden rainstorms lol all that kind of cheesy stuff we are looking forward to at DLR! If you get the "Entertainment book" (usually $20) it sometimes has a coupon in there for the rainforest cafe. Also, your hotel you are staying in usually has a section for local vendor coupons.

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Lola

Maricel Also, we have been so many times that we have gotten "OCDD" Obsessive Compuslive DISNEY disorder...jokingly, of course. We have been something like 5 times and we are already planning our 6th visit. In 2017 "star wars land" is going to open....an actuall size millenium falcon is going to be there! Also, make sure you check out the disneyland web site to see when you are planning to go to make sure the rides you want aren't closed for refurbishments.

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Lola

sorry, one more thought. If you can, if this is your first visit...make it all about disneyland. A lot of people try and fit in other things...trust me on this, don't. DLR and DCA are so huge and you always see new things that taking your time and not rushing will allow the most relaxed (sensory overload is easy to happen) vacation. When you get tired, leave the parks, go back to your hotel, DON"T watch the clock. go back to the parks when your family has a full tummy and is rested!

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Darryl

Our number 1 rule for travelling with our kids: sometimes wrong turns happen. Go with it. Often that's when the best stuff happens. Hard to remember in the moment, but....

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Nary

My aunt drove from Vancouver to LA then Vegas two weeks once. She has two kids, 12 and 7. She rent a house/condo on airbnb (I don't know the details) but she said she prefers a house so her hubby can make breakfast for the kids instead going out to look for breakfast everyday. I think it's ok to drive but flying save a lot of time.

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Brenda

I found it heavy to carry enough water for 4 people for the day. You can get free water inside the park at any restaurant. Just ask for a cup of water with ice at any restaurant and it's free. I just brought in empty doubled wall water bottles and would dump the free water into the water bottles.

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Karen

With kids 8 and 11, the kids can carry their own water/hat/sweater if they are in any way able. Empowering for them to be in control of their own stuff.

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Lola

A great time to go for a first visit is the first two weeks of December, decorated for Christmas, it's cooler and it's cheaper!!

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Lola

We just left New West 2 years ago! lol We lived in "Copperstone" right by Hospital.

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Sherry

Xmas decorations start going up after remembrance day we went the week of Nov 12th weather wasn't bad wore light jacket in the evenings

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Sherry

Note if your driving i think it takes 5-6 tanks of gas each way if I remember correctly. It's about 2100 km each way so when you figure out prices keep that in mind. Also I have often gone to the travel agent to book my tickets and hotels even if driving. Last time 4 of went for 8 days in nov 2012 and flight, hotel, airport transfers, 5 day dinseyland passes and universal studios passes and transport to . cost us $850 a person ($3400 total). Never hurts to drop in and ask what price quote they can get you. The dollar isn't as good now but doesn't hurt to ask them that way you know if you find a price online how good of a deal it is. Also I have see a price listed on line and then called the same hotels front desk and once I mentioned the price online they matched it. This is a nice option to book with a person instead of a computer if you are not comfortable booking online.

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Liz

We took our two kids (age 9 at the time) a few years ago and it was awesome. Whole trip cost about $6000 all in, food, park passes, everything for one day. We stayed at the holiday inn farther away from the park and and got a transit past for $50. The trip only took about 10 mins and we saved a bundle on our hotel. They also had kids eat free - a HUGE savings. We did eat inside the park because it was convenient, but the meals are pretty big, so we usually shared. We made sure to do one character breakfast, it was pricey, but totally worth it. We also booked through westjet vacations, they took care of everything. You will save a bundle flying out of Bellingham, but we liked the convenience of flying out of Vancouver. Driving sounds cheaper, but unless your kids are good travellers, pay the money and fly. Disney is EXHAUSTING!! Driving home could be awful when you are all on Disney Hangover.

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Darryl

Hard to argue with that last part!

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Liz

Oh, and we went for Halloween - SO AWESOME. And the Christmas stuff went up the next day so they could film the Christmas parade that weekend. Very cool experience.

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Heather

We went in May… Drove down with our 16-year-old and a five-year-old on…. I did this every year as a child and thought it would be so fun to do this with my own… Never again. Lol. Next time I will save the time, money, and headache and just fly there instead. Lol.

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Rhonda

You can use vrbo.com or vacationrentals.com. I have used them both. Went to disneyworld for 10 nights and used vacation rentals. Best way to go, cheaper then a hotel and more space and you can cook your own food for some meals if you prefer and have snacks for the kids. I took a family of 11 to disneyworld and spent 1500$ on accommodations for 10 nights. It would have cost me more like 8,000 to accommodate 11 people in disneyworld. Depending on the age of your kids and how they get a long in a car for 24 hours each way I would consider flying. The food, gas and hotels you get along the way and the stress can be more than the cost of flying. Really cheap flights are available from Bellingham on allegaintair. Also sign up for the kid programs through disneyland and you can really reduce the price of your park tickets.

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Mas

http://www.mousesavers.com/

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Mas

this site is loaded with discounts, deal, etc. Worth looking at and is full of some lesser known Disney stuff and tips,like the secret Club 33 entrance and merchandise.

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Vicki

If you're on a budget, don't eat in the park! It's crazy expensive. Bring sandwiches.

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Sharon

the Oregon Coast is beautiful

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Norma

The Oregon coast is beautiful but in December you need to watch the weather..... I've had to back track a couple of times that time of year and go to the highway because of flooding and slides.

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Susanna

Something memorable would be booking a character meal. If you do it at dinner time you can be right there to watch fireworks in the evening. I thought the character meal wold be hokey but it was actually really neat for the kids if your kids are old/young enough to appreciate the characters coming over to your table and greeting you. Get fast passes to the busiest rides and do it in the morning - go early right at start shin they open each day. Whenever you see lineups, always go to the left side -- the lines are always shorter. Bring a backpack and put snacks and water in it. We kept hearing people say they will confiscate but this was not true. Bring thermos type water bottles which will keep cold water cold if you go in the summer.

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Susanna

Also if you are in Cali, eat at the In and Out burger. Excellent food, not that expensive

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Sandi

I would suggest renting a condo where you can do your own meals. vrbo is a great sight. Again, make sure you figure out the actual cost of driving. Our family of 4 flew out of Vancouver for $900. And car rentals are cheap out of LAX.
If you really want to drive friends of ours when down the coast and had a great time.They rented yurts in state parks and said it was great!

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Sandi

Oh, and we bought our 4 day Disney passes from a travel agent which was cheapest in the end. BCAA is good too and also Costco on line has a Southern California pass that looks good too. We went in April. A highlight for us was going to Laguna Beach for a beach day. It was a great break from the business of Disney. Don't miss the amazing selections of beaches when you go!

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Susan

Take the coastal highway down not the interior, the desert is too hot. The coastal route is stunning.

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Vicki

One more thing...we went in October around the 14th. The line ups were almost non-existent. There's a sweet spot between Thanksgiving and Hallowe'en and American Thanksgiving, where people aren't likely to travel. If the kids are young enough a week from school isn't a bad thing...and I was a teacher. Just take work for the older kids and make sure they do it.

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Maricel

Thanks Vicki

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Maricel

Thank you everyone for all your tips and experiences. Very helpful?

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Cal

Halloween time is very restrictive due to Mickeys Halloween Parties. There are more every year!

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Jess

Right now there's good deal on travel packages and flights to CA

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Barbara

Probably cheaper to flight when you take into account the gas, food and lodging along the way. Also, the highways can be brutal like traffic jams entering Seattle. They can add another two hours driving through a city. I also hate driving the I-5 in northern California as there were convoys of semi trucks (I counted 22 of them at one point). Also, each state has its own speed limit, so be aware of it especially in Oregon.

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Michelle

Cheap passes from ares travel. Read up at www.mousesavers.com
MOUSESAVERS.COM
MouseSavers.com - Your source for Disney discounts, codes & deals!

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Clarissa

Hi Barbara, I just came back from a two weeks vacation, Vancouver to LA (actually, Irwindale), long drive with my 3 teenagers. For me, it was a good drive because I enjoyed looking at the sceneries, but it gets boring after Redding, CA, when you start hitting the flat freeway. It is best to make sure you and your husband take turns driving so it doesn't take a toll on your body. Good to stop overnight (we stayed in Redding on the way there and at Medford, OR on the way back). Depending on the time you leave, you won't hit traffic but there's also HOV, another advantage. If you have a DVD player, it's also good to watch movies, we watched mostly Disney movies and even the teenage boys enjoyed that. Let me know if you have anymore questions. Oh and one great tip is that it is good to pay gas by cash. It's cheaper than with credit card. Flying is fun but then you have to account for renting a vehicle. There are pros and cons, but with today's exchange rate, we opted for driving.
Have fun.

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Clarissa

ooops. Sorry Barbara. I typed in your name instead of
Maricel. Enjoy your trip Maricel.

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Francis

Road trips are wonderful if you have the time, with proper planning (priceline your lodging) you will see much more. On the way, you can consider national parks (Mt. St. Helens, Crater Lake, Oregon Coast (not direct on I5), Yosemite, loop to Vegas (Bryce/Zion/Grand/Antelope - if you have the time), Monterey Aquarium. Honestly, when you are in Anaheim, Disneyland is prime attraction for kids and adults (Universal/Knotts not so much, Knotts is like a bigger PNE), the whole Disneyland experience is just so much more "complete" however expensive, Hollywood is a good side-trip, Getty Museum (free except parking)was great maybe not for little kids. You can save lots depending on your planning, ie. Bring a cooler, a portable cook top, cook along the way. A couple of days down, a couple of days back to not rush it, you'll probably have a little over a week of non-driving time. If you have never been to Disneyland, recommend 3 days, and only on weekdays not coinciding with holidays...

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Jenny

If you are willing to off from Bellingham, air will be much cheaper than long drive days. allegiant air presents around US$50 pp for one way ticket from Bellingham to LA/SNA. Spirit is also one of the lower fare airline, they sometimes promote $9+tax fare btw Seattle to LA.

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Cal

Look in to westjet packages. They fly directly to John Wayne and when you convert the dollar are the best deal. Stay across from the park. The short walks make the world of difference. We are AP's from Vancouver and go about 4 times a year.

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Brenda

We went to DL twice for our sons. Both times we flew. We previously drove to Vegas and it is a long drive. I remember my neighbour once told me once that he and his family drove down to DL and when he got to Eugene he had enough driving. When you factor in the cost of gas, hotels, food ...it is cheaper to fly from bellingham. Road trips often cost $500 day....

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Dawn

We drove from Van Island to DL and spend 2 nights on the road both directions. Had no problems, and was cheaper than flying (only 1.5 tanks of fuel per day). Along the way, stay in hotels that include breakfast. We stayed right across from main entrance to park so was an easy stroll. Also our hotel included breakfast. We ate main meals outside of the park. Three to five days is more than enough time to do the parks and Universal. It was nice to have our own car so we could explore the area.


A.I. says...

AI Profile Pic

Planning the Ultimate Family Trip to Disneyland CA

Hello fellow parents! It's understandable that planning a trip to Disneyland can be daunting, especially when you're trying to make the most of your hard-earned money. But fear not! With a little preparation and some insider tips, you can create lasting memories without breaking the bank.

Budgeting and Planning

First and foremost, start saving as early as possible. Disneyland trips can be expensive, but with proper budgeting, you can make it happen. Here are some tips to help you plan your finances:

  • Set a realistic budget and stick to it.
  • Look for discounts and deals on tickets, accommodations, and dining.
  • Consider staying off-site to save on hotel costs.
  • Pack snacks and meals to avoid overspending on food.

The Road Trip Adventure

Driving from Vancouver to Disneyland can be an exciting adventure in itself! Here are some tips to make the most of your road trip:

  • Plan your route and stops ahead of time.
  • Pack plenty of games, snacks, and entertainment for the kids.
  • Take breaks frequently to stretch your legs and enjoy the scenery.
  • Consider splitting the drive into multiple days to avoid exhaustion.

Disneyland Tips and Tricks

Once you arrive at the Happiest Place on Earth, there are a few things you can do to maximize your experience:

  • Arrive early and plan your day around the park's schedule.
  • Take advantage of FastPass and MaxPass to skip long lines.
  • Bring refillable water bottles and snacks to save on costs.
  • Schedule breaks and downtime to avoid burnout.
  • Stay late to enjoy the park's nighttime entertainment.

Creating Magical Memories

Remember, the most important thing is to have fun and make lasting memories with your family. Embrace the magic of Disneyland, take plenty of pictures, and cherish the moments together. With a little planning and a positive attitude, you can create an unforgettable trip that your kids will treasure for years to come.

Happy planning, and have a magical time at Disneyland!



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    * offer up their unbiased travel advice?

      Join the group for your city and find out!



(click 'Join Group', at the top-right, when you arrive)



Follow the deals on Twitter!
      Follow Twitter for the latest deals and       updates from your city...



(click 'Follow', when you arrive)




Follow the deals with RSS!
      Follow the deals from your city with your      favorite RSS reader...